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Bedini
questions

Magnetism

By monte350c,
Section Homebrewed
Electricity
Posted on Sun Dec 14th, 2003 at 11:49:49 PM
MST

Soldering Iron heating up as we speak...

Hi
All,

Oh dear. I feel an overwhelming need to build one of these Bedini
motors. I don't really care about over unity. But I am interested in
high efficiency and the thought of having one of these critters
spinning away on my desk for a long while on a battery is strangely
appealing!

So I don't have to repeat anything others have done before that
didn't work too well - here's what I've got so far -

Read the Bedini motor patent over several times

Downloaded the twin battery circuit available on the Web

asked a few preliminary questions - and here are a couple
more:

It seems that one of the more important things is
timing, of both the primary and secondary sides of the circuit.

The primary side is pretty well explained and I kind of 'get'
what's going on there. But the secondary side, with the capacitor
charging the battery I must admit to some confusion on that point.
I've read some very helpful stuff from "charged" here, that
basically says the cap will sit at the battery potential, then
gather up charge from the back EMF on the coil, then at some point
(designed to be not in-line with any rotor / stator magnetic
activity) be discharged into the battery. So my question is -
instead of using a seperate timing wheel and discharge switch -
could I mount a commutator (either mechanical or electronic) on the
main shaft and have it discharge once per revolution? Or would that
not give sufficient time for the cap to charge?

My knowledge on caps in general is pretty shaky - other than my
electronics shop teacher many years ago who had a device about the
size of a toilet paper tube, covered in tin foil with two insulating
spaces down the sides on his desk. As I came to know there was some
kind of cap inside it because when curious visitors picked it up
there was a pretty decent shock in store. (OW - voice of
experience...)

One of the appealing things about this motor - I just searched
through my junk drawer and found everything on the diagram for this
motor except the batteries.

Having fun!

Ted.

Bedini
questions | 8 comments (8 topical, 0 editorial)

Re:
Bedini questions (none
/ 0) (#1)

by windstuffnow ([email-masked])
on Mon Dec 15th, 2003 at 10:14:21 AM MST
(User
Info) http://www.windstuffnow.com/main

Hi Monte,
I haven't built a "bedini" motor
per say, I've built a few based on the original "Lenz" concept which
was used to prove the "Lenz law" then later went on to experimenting
with the "Adams motor" which is what I believe the bedini motor
principal is based on.  One of my early models ran for 6 months
by switch charging 2 dead 9V batteries. The coils ran about 20
degrees below ambient for the whole time.  Later I went on to
building some more advanced models the last one shown below...
This one had dual rotors with 4 coils.  Each coil had 2
windings (primary and secondary) for extracting back emf.  The
voltage going into the caps sometimes exceeded 1500 volts.
When connected to 2 8ft flourescent bulbs, had no trouble
powering them up to full light.  The motor ran at 7200 rpm and
ran from a 12V battery drawing about 5 amps.  It never made an
"over unity" output but It did come in at around 97% as long as it
only ran itself and powering flourescents or recharging the
secondary battery.  So basically it was extreemly efficient as
long as it did no real work.  I used a hall sensor for the
timing and mosfets for powering the coils.  I must have spent 2
years playing with about 40 different motors I built before I
decided to move on to other things.  Then built a magnetic
rotary engine followed by a new hobby into the stirling engines...
and on and on and still going!
Have Fun
Ed

Re:
Bedini questions (none
/ 0) (#2)

by ibedonc on Mon Dec 15th, 2003 at 12:59:44 PM
MST
(User Info)

I
believe Bedini does it every 3 turns , I plan on doing mine with a
divider ic or a few flip-flops ic's , look on his page  http://www.icehouse.net/john1/intro.html
you will a circuit for a pulse charger ,also look here

http://appft1.uspto.gov/netacgi/nph-Parser?Sect1=PTO2&Sect2=HITOFF&p=1&u=%2Fnetahtml%2FPTO%2Fsearch-bool.html&r=0&f=S&l=50&TERM1=bedini&FIELD1=IN&co1=AND&TERM2=&FIELD2=&d=PG01

From:   "roamer1952000" <roamer@c...>
Date:
Thu Sep 11, 2003  4:19 pm
Subject:  Re: Bedini
motor

look at the pulse charger one

this even tells what all the parts are

also this will help you with the coil and setting it up

found this in the yahoo group free_energy

From:   "roamer1952000" <roamer@c...>
Date:
Thu Sep 11, 2003  4:19 pm
Subject:  Re: Bedini
motor

Ok, start with an EXACT replication (same proportions and layout)
of
the full motor diagram of patent #6,545,444.

To make the Stator winding assembly:

First, cut a 1" long piece of 1/2" cpvc tubing.

I then picked up a couple of the PVC "electrical outlet boxes"
and cut
the spool ends out of the flat sides. Just use a circle
cutter on a
drill. After cutting out the two circles, drill out
the center hole in
each to match the OD of the CPVC tube. Then
just use regular pipe glue
to put the ends on the spool.

Make a trifilar winding of 500turns, using #23 magnet wire. Make
sure
the winding is tight, then wrap it with tape to hold
everything in
place. Or, you can glue it all up or whatever. Just
be sure the
windings aren't loose.

Match up the winding ends for input, output, and feedback
windings.

To make the stator core:

INCREASING INDUCTANCE is the key here.

Increasing ANY ONE of three main factors increases the inductance
of
the core.

Cross-sectional ara of the core (view from end)

Number of turns

Permeability of the core material

Decrease core length (pole-to-pole)

The stator
core must be made from a low-loss material. Something with
low
hysteresis, low eddy current losses and high permeability
is
preferred. Pure iron wire would be great.

I've been using a bunch of 1/16" steel welding wire strands,
pressed
into a 1/2"x1" CPVC tube spool. I clipped them all to fit
inside the
length of the spool, leaving about 1/2" extra sticking
out one end.

Take them back out of the spool and stand all of the core wires
in a
foam block. Only stick them in about 1/4". Then coat each
strand with
spray enamel. This insulates each wire INDIVIDUALLY
and greatly
reduces eddy current losses when you pack them into
the core.

Once the paint has cured and is HARD, jam the wires into the core
as
smoothly as you can, without chipping off any paint. Leave
the
uncoated ends sticking out the BACK SIDE of the stator.

Squirt superglue into the pack of core wires to lock them in
place.
Once it's fully cured, cut off the unpainted ends flush
with the back
side of the core. Use some fine sandpaper and a
wire brush to made
sure that end of the core is free from
overhaning burrs and metal
dust. Put a little more superglue into
that end.

Ok, so now you have your stator. Most of the real work is done.

Go take a look at patent #6,292,370.

You'll see that is shows TWO stator windings. Ignore that part
for now.
You'll also see that there is another permanent magnet
at the BASE of
the stator pole. It's set in ATTRACT mode with the
rotor magnets.

This "backside" magnet puts a "field tension" on the core. When
you
apply current to the core windings in opposition to this
pre-existing
"hard" field, YOU don't have to waste energy on
hysteresis in the
core. The PM has ALREADY ALIGNED AND TENSIONED
all the magnetic
domains in the core FOR YOU. It's kinda like
blowing up a balloon. You
don't get ANY TENSION on the balloon
surface until you take up the
slack inside with YOUR AIR INPUT.
Once you pass that point, YOUR AIR
INPUT starts stretching the
balloon surface. THAT is the only energy
you'd get back when you
release the air from the balloon. It works the
same way with the
domains in the steel. The very first part of the
current YOU put
into a plain steel core is spent ENTIRELY on getting
the domains
organized and aligned. Once aligned THEN the field starts
to
build and store energy. The PM takes care of this for you.

> In the case of the Bedini motor it was never said if it
attracted or
> repelled and the coil direction winding (not
specified clockwise or
> counter clockwise) would make it work
either way. We are
> pretty sure but not certain that it had
free magnet to core attraction
> and then the postitive pulse
came from the trigger coil a few degrees
> after dead center
to turn on the transistor and
> repel it past the lockup point
of the free attraction.
>
>
> Norman

You didn't study the patents enough. EVERYTHING about this device
is
in those patents. I mean EVERYTHING. Start reading with a
"lawyers eyes".

The primary winding is FULLY energized in REPULSION mode, just as
the
rotor reaches TDC. Bear in mind that the bipolar transistor
IS already
starting to turn on once base-lead threshold is
reached by the
incoming pulse. It is an "increasing ramp turn-on"
that coincides with
increasing positive current slope coming from
the "sense" winding.
This "RAMP" is important. Re-read.

Ok, now think about this one. In a circuit with a common ground
on two
batteries, one battery being a 12 volt and the other being
a 9 volt,
what happens if you connect the two positive terminals
together on
those two batteries?

What if both batteries are 12v?

What if a generator is putting out exactly 12v pure DC and you
hook it
to a battery at exactly 12v. Does any current flow in
either direction?

The transistor must come on just enough to make a "null" field
zone
between the stator and the rotor. NOT A PUSH.

******************

Ok, let's now assume that your motor is assembled JUST LIKE
THE
PATENT, with 3 magnets spaced at 120 degrees on the wheel.

YOU MUST mount your stator in such a way that you can ADJUST THE
GAP
between the magnet and stator core. Without this, you'll
probably fail.

This GAP is set to match whatever battery you're using to "power"
the
motor. It's REALLY SIMPLE TO SET.

First, get a couple of alligator clip leads and hook them up to
your
battery.

Find out what the stator polarity needs to be to PUSH the rotor
magnet
away. Once you've found that out, you can begin adjustment
of the gap.
I usually just put a piece of masking tape around
those wires where
they come out of the stator, and mark them
positive and negative.

With the battery shorted into the winding, find the distance
where the
rotor magnet is neither pushed away NOR pulled in.
There IS a sort of
"bobbling point" in there somewhere. Get it as
close as you can THEN
set it SLIGHTLY on the repulsion side of
that "null" zone. When you're
using the transistor, it will drop
the battery voltage a bit. This
then drops the field slightly
and, Voila! You're in the "null" zone,
or, ahem..... The Zero
Point. heh.

NOW, when the transistor is energized, you won't be wasting any
energy
to PUSH the magnet away. It will do IT'S OWN PUSHING as
it's leaving
TDC. You will ONLY provide a little "null" zone for
the magnet to be
"free" to do what it wants. This means that ALL
THE TORQUE on the
shaft is PURELY from the magnets own
attractions and repulsions. It
can't be anything else doing it
since you ALREADY know YOU set the gap
to be a NULL at FULL
BATTERY VOLTAGE. You couldn't PUSH it if you
wanted to. The
transistor is even DROPPING some of your original
voltage, so
you're actually just BARELY nullifying the field at TDC.
Ok, if
you don't get it, re-read.

You now have ENOUGH info to accurately reproduce the device.

Here's a snapshot of what is really happening.
First, we'll
review "Lenz Law" which states:

"An induced current flows in a direction to create a magnetic
field
which will counteract the change in magnetic flux."

In other words ANY TIME a magnetic field APPROCHES a closed loop
of
conductor, a CURRENT flows in that conductor loop. That
current flow
causes an OPPOSING field to the approaching field
and creates DRAG.

The same thing happens when you REMOVE a magnetic field from a
closed
conductor loop. It PULLS at the field and DRAGS it back.

This is why conventional generators ALWAYS require more torque on
the
shaft when you have a LOAD on them.

IF that aforementioned conductor is NOT in a closed loop, no
current
flows and there is NO DRAG, Just a measurable "open
circuit voltage".

Keep all this in mind while you follow along here.

Rotor magnet approaches the stator.

sense winding triggers the base with an increasing
current RAMP as

the PM field SWEEPS INTO the stator core.
NO LOAD is applied during
this phase (except for base lead) SO
ALL the PM attraction goes into
ACCELERATION of the rotor. This
is REAL TORQUE as offered up by
NATURE, NOT YOU.

3. Slightly before and AT TDC, a little dance occurs.

a. the transistor RAMPS "on" to NULLIFY PM FIELD ENTRY into
the
core. This is actually a very small expenditure of battery
current,
just to bring the two fields into the "null". This
CANNOT BE A PUSH
since your battery's voltage isn't high enough
to do that.

b. AT TDC, the rotor no longer "sees" anything to be attracted
to,
it's field is no longer EXTENDING in attraction to the stator
core.
The core is "stealthed". The rotor skates merrily on by,
thinking
nothing is wrong. Tum-te-tum-te-tum..... heh.

c. JUST AFTER TDC, the transistor is SLAMMED into "off" mode
and
the rotor is already moving AWAY. BUT, it's field now WANTS
to extend
to the nearby core and ENTER IT. Hmmmm...

d. The magnet's FIELD is trying to EXPAND and enter the core.
The
windings are now LOADED by the storage capacitor, a
practically dead
short on the windings. Hmmmm......

What does Lenz law say? Something about when a FIELD APPROACHES
a
CLOSED LOOP CONDUCTOR, that conductor produces an OPPOSING
FIELD that
PUSHES BACK at the approaching field. RE-READ until
you SEE IT in your
head.

The physical magnet and it's FIELD are TWO SEPARATE ENTITIES, NOT
ONE.

The magnet is moving away and it's field get's a PUSH from the
EMF
extraction through the capacitor.

Shake you head a little. Go slam a door a few times. Yell at the
cat.

Now, re-read and recognize the implications of what you just
learned.

Lenz Law can NEVER BE DEFEATED. And, it doesn't need to be. It
works
FOR YOU with this design.

ok , then this is from Bedini's page
US Patent# 6,545,444,and
US2003/0117111A1 now granted.

Their is one thing we should get straight right now, the
dimensions of the coil are not important. The resistance of the coil
is not important, the windings are not important, the magnets are
not important. None of these things mean anything.  All of you
are wasting your good earned money on neo- magnets, dime store
magnets will do just fine stacked together. There is no secret to
this machine, it's the process and the switching that's
important!!!!! I have never counted one winding when I was making
these motors with Peter,  I'm not saying one turn of wire will
work because it won't, again what is important is, THE PROCESS AND
HOW YOU COLLECT IT AND SWITCH IT. Why are you all thinking that it
makes a difference in how the coil is wound, here is a number for
you 500 turns number 23 tri-filer wound wire, see no step up no step
down, just 1 to 1 ,welding rod for the core, roller-skate wheel, all
north poles out, 2n3055 TO-3 case Junk but better, Do not use TIP
3055 it's just real junk , 330 ohms base resistor, 1N914 diode,
hooked up the way I said. that's it. This makes your mechanical
inductive coupled oscillator no big deal. By the way you are right
about the terminology, we are babies at this to, just trying to
(DEAD MAN FUSE IT), Nature does not care what the coil looks like.
OH forgot the 1kv diode bridge on the third winding, and a 10Uf 500
volt cap, be careful you will fly across the room. I said I broke
the machine into three patents, third patent, use the bottom half of
switcher only. Do we all get it now?, By the way this is a limited
machine to just study the radiant current to the battery. Thomas
Bearden has defined it!!! "Everything in nature is simple this is
the most complicated to the human mind, let's keep it simple".

Most of the problems with what you are doing is, the magnets,
using a bolt for the core is not right, I said cut welding rod
and  you are not selecting the correct resistor for the
base current for this mechanical oscillator. Save your money you do
not want to use NEO-MAGNETS, just use radio shack cheap magnets!!!!

WHY?

This motor energizer is a mechanical oscillator whose speed
depends on the lowest amount of current you can put into the coil.
If you apply too much current, you cause the transistor to cross
conduct (known as cross conduction current). When you do this, the
semiconductor over heats, because the current to the transistor
stays on and the mechanical oscillator runs slow.You cause the same
thing to happen by using NEO-MAGNETS. Once the mechanical oscillator
is running , YOU MUST ADJUST THE BASE RESISTOR TO THE HIGHEST VALUE
that gives you the highest speed with the lowest current draw. The
more magnets you get around the wheel the better the collection
process will be.  The magnets can not be too close together and
must be spaced evenly around the wheel. You can find the right
magnets at Radio Shack or a hardware store.

For the coil, just use an old solder roll or a bobbin you get
wire on, cut and fill the center hole with .030 welding rod . This
works really
well.

Re:
Bedini questions (none
/ 0) (#4)

by charged on Mon Dec 15th, 2003 at 01:31:52 PM
MST
(User Info)

Looks like there are a bunch more people already having fun
with this thing than I thought!!

Maybe we should have a convention or something!

[ Parent
]

Re:
Bedini questions (none
/ 0) (#5)

by bob golding (yubba at
clara dot net) on Mon Dec 15th, 2003 at 04:52:01 PM
MST
(User
Info)

yep going to  make one myself when i get back home
from this trip. opps getting to many projects again.  still
they all seem to involve  caps and wire and magnets so
thats ok  then. trying to steer clear of anything involving
programming and i should at least have something to show at the
end of it.

having too much fun here
bob

[ Parent
]

Re:
Bedini questions (none
/ 0) (#3)

by charged on Mon Dec 15th, 2003 at 01:23:52 PM
MST
(User Info)

Hi
Monte!

This one is running on what used to be my nightstand. Yep,
there's nothing quite so soothing as clicking and rumbling bearings
when you need to fall asleep. heh.

This one is using about 350uf (2 photoflash capacitors) rated at
400v each. The pulse rate is about 4hz. Why? Well, if you look at
Bedini's charger patent, it says to keep the capacitors near the 20v
range for max efficiency for each pulse. The less capacitance you
have, the higher the voltage will rise between commutator pulses. I
just built the commutator with 4 copper strips (cut from a scrap
pipe) and then put caps on to see how high the voltage would climb
on them between pulses. Turns out I only needed two caps on this
one.

The Bedini and Adam's motors are two different creatures. I'm not
going to go into the differences because others have done it
elsewhere.

Take a real good look at the stator winding. What you have there
is a 1:1 transformer.

Under "normal" use as a transformer, if you hit the primary with
a 12v sinewave, put a full-wave bridge on the secondary, and then
charged an electrolytic capacitor, you'd have 12VDC on the cap,
maximum. If you put a  resistive load across the cap, like
small bulb, you'd see the primary side current draw increase as the
bulb draws the cap charge down below 12v.

That much is conventional transformer theory.

This motor something different. An incoming magnet generates a
postitive sine which does no work except activating the base of the
transistor.

The transistor switches the pimary battery on just as the magnet
reaches TDC, and creates a "null" in the field interactions,
allowing the magnet to float past TDC as if the stator isn't there.

Due to the slight delay in the transformer action, it takes a
tiny fraction of a second for the feedback winding's output to
invert to negative, clamping the transistor OFF.

The magnet's field once again tries to reach out for the stator
and THIS action does two things.

Voltage is a function of FLUX VELOCITY, CORE
PERMEABILITY and NUMBER OF TURNS. So, the re-expanding magnetic
field from the rotor magnet SLAMS into the core at nearly the
speed of light. This generates an extremely high voltage that is
WAY above primary battery voltage. This pulse EASILY fills a
capacitor above primary voltage. Once the cap is above that
primary voltage, the only current used from the primary is for
field nullification. Nothing more.

That capacitive LOADING on the secondary causes the
stator core to develop a counter EM field that resists the
incoming PM field from the DEPARTING rotor magnet, giving it an
elastic SHOVE away from the stator.

In a nutshell, as long
as your collection capacitor is NEVER DRAWN LOWER THAN PRIMARY
BATTERY VOLTAGE, the stator winding arrangement effectively isolates
the primary from the secondary and you don't need to worry about
timing your output pulses against primary input pulses. The fact
that your motor/gen gives you nothing but CEMF to work with in the
secondary means the primary side will never notice ANYTHING that you
do with the cap charge, UNLESS you draw that cap lower than primary
voltage.

Once you get yours going, Get a small fan-blade and put it on the
main rotor. Then watch what happens to your primary input power. Oh,
ok, I'll just tell you. The input power drops as you load up the
output shaft.

Sounds a little counter-intuitive. But, it's not. Just don't load
it down so much that you stall it out. Every motor is different.
This needs to be mechanically loaded the same way you load an IC
engine with a fixed throttle, like a lawnmower. You can only cut so
much at a time without binding and stalling. Same thing with the
Bedini system.

Make sure you posts some pics when you get it
finished!

Re:
Bedini questions (none
/ 0) (#6)

by monte350c on Mon Dec 15th, 2003 at 07:29:53 PM
MST
(User
Info)

Hi
Guys,

Thanks for all the replies! If I wasn't going to try one before
this I sure am now. Might take a week or so but I'll post any
results as they're available.  Great minds think alike...
(modify saying and place period here!)

Lots of fun!

Ted.

[ Parent
]

Re:
Bedini questions (none
/ 0) (#7)

by charged on Wed Dec 17th, 2003 at 11:19:25 AM
MST
(User Info)

Everyone should hit this page AGAIN!

http://www.icehouse.net/john1/index100.htm

There is a NEW CIRCUIT posted near the bottom of the page!

It describes EXACTLY what the inventor intended this "motor" to
be!

Enjoy!

Re:
Bedini questions (none
/ 0) (#8)

by monte350c on Wed Dec 17th, 2003 at 01:26:04 PM
MST
(User
Info)

Hi
Charged,

Hmmmm.... that's kind of what I was thinking about when I asked
about eliminating the second belt-driven wheel. Very interesting!
Thanks for the link.

Ted.

[ Parent
]

Bedini
questions | 8 comments (8 topical, 0 editorial)

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