MR. BINNIE:

Q. Mrs. Zundel, could you keep your voice up so that the Members of the Tribunal can hear you clearly.

Are you any relation to the respondent, Ernst Zundel?

A. I am presently married to him, for about 18 months.

Q. When did you and Mr. Zundel marry?

A. On March 14, 1996.

Q. Are you still living together?

A. No, we separated on July 11.

Q. July 11 of what year?

A. 1997, this year.

Q. Where did you live between March 14, 1996 and July 11, 1997?

A. At 206 Carlton Street in Toronto, except for brief trips home to my home state.

Q. What is the present status of your relationship with Mr. Zundel?

A. I am seeking a divorce.

Q. Is there any prospect of reconciliation with Mr. Zundel?

A. Zero, absolutely none.

Q. Could you indicate to the Tribunal very generally something of your educational background.

A. I had a private school education, two years at college. I have no college degree.

Q. What sort of work experience have you had, again very generally?

A. I have studied fashion design. I decorated store windows. When I was married previously, I helped my husband in his solely operated business. Between marriages, between my first husband and Ernst, I home-schooled my son.

MEMBER JAINS: I am sorry, I can't quite make out-- could you please speak up a bit more?

THE WITNESS: Yes.

MR. BINNIE: Mrs. Zundel, maybe I am at fault here. Perhaps you could give your answers to the Tribunal rather than to me, and that will be less volume that you will have to put behind the answers.

Q. Can you tell the Tribunal whether you are here before this Tribunal in answer to a subpoena?

A. No, I am not. I am here of my own volition.

Q. How did you come to be here?

A. I was requested by the police to talk to Commission lawyers, and I did do so.

Q. What was the topic that gave rise to that request?

A. I am not sure I understand the question.

Q. You say that you were talking to the police?

A. Yes.

Q. And the suggestion was made that you speak to the Commission?

A. That's right. At first, it was unrelated topics, but then the police brought up the matter of Ernst being before the Tribunal. When that matter was discussed, then they asked if I would talk to the lawyers.

Q. Is there any financial arrangement in connection with your appearance here?

A. Just to pay for hotels and meals and expense of travel back and forth, lodgings and food.

Q. In other words, your expenses?

A. That's right.

Q. You mentioned that you had assisted your previous husband in his business. Did you assist Mr. Zundel in his work during the time that you were married to him?

A. Yes, I did, largely typing letters, word processing, researching certain topics, things like that.

Q. In the course of that, did you become familiar with Mr. Zundel's various publications and projects?

A. With his newsletter and his Web site. Oftentimes I helped make corrections or suggestions or additions or deletions or provided research for certain things.

Q. At any stage did you acquire some familiarity with his Power Letters?

A. Yes.

Q. Can you tell the Tribunal how that came about?

A. Ernst, every month, writes an English Power Letter and a German Power Letter. The English Power Letter I would help to proofread for him or make suggestions. In one Power Letter I contributed certain research that he included in his newsletter.

Q. Did you at any time draw together copies of the Power Letters, collections?

A. Yes. He always adds pictures and paragraphs and insertions and headlines and captions and stuff. I would help him type and lay out things like that.

Q. I want to show you a book of what we understand to be a number of Power Letters that are of interest in this proceeding. I ask if you would look through those documents at each of the tabs, just briefly, and advise the Tribunal whether the documents contained in this book appear to be the Power Letters that you were describing, some of them.

A. Actually, I recognize every Power Letter. The ones that were before we were married, some of these with Ernst's approval have been sent to the police, the ones in 1995. One particular detective asked if I would get newsletters from the archives and present the police with a collection of his writings. So I am familiar with every single letter that appears here, in content and in style and in form.

Q. You say this was done with Ernst's approval?

A. That's right. Detective Irwin had requested information, and Ernst said it would be okay if I sent it down to him. I got him certain letters in 1995 and 1996 from the archives.

THE CHAIRPERSON: And sent where?

THE WITNESS: To Detective Irwin of Metro Police.

MR. BINNIE:

Q. In each of these Power Letters there is a photocopy of a signature. Do you recognize that signature?

A. That is Ernst's.

Q. That is Ernst Zundel's signature?

A. Yes, it is.

MR. BINNIE: Mr. Chairman, could we mark this as Exhibit HR-4.

THE CHAIRPERSON: Yes.

THE REGISTRAR: The document entitled "Power Letters" containing tabs 1 through 9, will be filed as Commission Exhibit HR-4.

EXHIBIT NO. HR-4: Document entitled "Power Letters" containing tabs 1 through 9

MR. BINNIE:

Q. Could you tell the Tribunal something about how these Power Letters are prepared, from your direct knowledge.

A. Ernst writes everything with a fountain pen. He will sit and write the content of every Power Letter. Then I usually proofread it for content and spelling and grammatical errors, where his English is rusty. Then he faxes them to the San Diego area to Dr. Ingrid Rimland who then types them and puts them in a word processing format on her computer. Then she e-mails them to the computer of Marc Lemire in a final stage. Then Marc sends it out, and then it is given to an elderly gentleman by the name of Alfred Lucas who in the basement at 206 Carlton Street will reproduce 1,200 to 1,500 sets of each letter for mailing.

Q. You mentioned two people there. The first was Ingrid Rimland.

A. Right.

Q. And you say she lives in California?

A. Carlsbad, California, which is a suburb of San Diego.

Q. What is her function, again, in relation to the Power Letters themselves?

A. She actually takes Ernst's longhand material and then she puts it on a word processor and formats it into his newsletter format, and then ships it up to Marc by way of e-mail so that it can be reproduced and mailed.

Q. Who is Marc Lemire?

A. He is a part-time employee of Ernst. He does computer work for him.

THE CHAIRPERSON: How does he spell his name?

THE WITNESS: M-a-r-c L-e-m-i-r-e.

MR. BINNIE:

Q. Where is his computer located?

A. Right next to mine, on the same floor as Ernst's office, on the main floor.

Q. Is that at the same address on Carlton Street?

A. That's right.

Q. You say that Mr. Lemire's computer is next to yours. Can you tell the Tribunal something of your own computer skills and when you acquired them?

A. I mostly acquired them after I became married to Ernst. I can do a little bit of typing and word processing and I know how to access the Internet and I do some research.

As far as Web site information, for posting stuff to the Web site I don't have the technical knowledge.

Q. That is on posting to the Web site.

A. That's right.

Q. Are you able to access the Web site?

A. Yes, I am.

Q. During the time that you were living with Mr. Zundel, did Mr. Lemire have the ability to post to the Web site?

A. Actually, there were several times that he posted things to the Web site, because Ingrid didn't have the technical capability of doing that. For example, Ernst put on a video clip saying "CSIS Exposed." At one time he put some of his radio programs on the Internet.

THE CHAIRPERSON: Witness, will you speak a little slower and a little clearer? Everyone here has the right to hear your evidence. Would you speak slower and as distinctly as possible.

THE WITNESS: Okay.

On several occasions Marc was able to post things to the Web site that Ingrid Rimland had no technical knowledge how to do. For example, there was a video clip on a section called "CSIS Exposed" and "SIRC Exposed" where, allegedly, two CSIS agents were saying, "We know the ARA fire-bombed Zundel's house." That video clip was put there by Marc Lemire because Ingrid Rimland doesn't know how to do that.

They have now been taken off, I believe, but there were radio broadcasts of Ernst's that were on the Web site. Again, it was Marc Lemire's responsibility to post the radio shows to the Web site.

MR. BINNIE:

Q. HR-2 is a collection of documents which we are told were downloaded from the Web site. Are you able, by looking at these documents, to ascertain whether this is the same Web site that you referred to in connection with Mr. Lemire posting materials to the Web site?

A. I recognize all that material from the Web site, but I can't verify what Marc posted and what Ingrid posted.

Q. But we are talking about the same Web site?

A. Yes, it is, definitely.

Q. Is that what is sometimes described in the documents as the Zundelsite?

A. Yes, it is.

Q. When you say that Mr. Lemire posted items to the Web site, can you give the Tribunal some idea of the frequency with which that occurred during the time that you lived with Mr. Zundel?

A. It was an intermittent thing. It wasn't on a regular basis. Besides loading the audio and video file, if Ingrid would travel -- she has an e-mail list of subscribers for her Zgrams. Marc would be responsible for getting out her e-mail list and posting the daily Zgrams while she travelled, putting one out each day for her.

Q. Posting the Zgrams to what?

A. To the Web site, and also e-mailing the Zgrams to the people on her e-mail recipient list.

Q. Was that done from this computer that was beside your computer at 206 Carlton Street?

A. Either there or from Marc's own personal computer. Sometimes he worked at his home.

Q. You mentioned the Zgrams. Are there examples in this document of the Zgrams?

A. Right.

Q. And there are also examples of Power Letters?

A. Yes.

Q. Can you tell the Tribunal something about how the Zgrams came into existence?

A. Ernst checked his fax machine every morning, first thing in the morning, between 9:00 and 10:00. Normally, there is a Zgram there that is typed by Ingrid Rimland, double-spaced to allow for corrections, insertions, deletions and comments. Ernst would for the first half of the day sit down and correct the Zgram, using a fountain pen or a uniball pen. He would correct it by longhand, send it back to Ingrid, who then would rewrite it and then post it to the Web site.

Q. What was the purpose of Mr. Zundel going through the Zgrams?

A. In my opinion, he didn't trust her political judgment. He didn't like some of the things that she wrote. He basically wanted editorial control over what she said before it was posted.

Q. Did he, in fact, exercise editorial control over what she posted to the Web site?

A. There were some occasions when he made her scrap entire Zgrams and rewrite them. There were times when he had her add information or delete certain phrases that he didn't like.

Q. To your knowledge, were there instances where there was a disagreement between Mr. Zundel and Ms Rimland as to whether something should be posted?

A. Actually, infrequently but on several occasions Ernst and Ingrid would quibble. She didn't like how editorially restrained she was, how closely he curtailed her in saying something. She kept trying to add personal comments to the Zgrams that Ernst thought were inappropriate. In the end, since he signs her paycheque, Ernst always prevailed and things were posted as he wanted them.

Q. You say Ernst signs her paycheque. Could you tell the Tribunal, to your knowledge, what that arrangement was.

A. Ingrid Rimland gets $3,000 a month, and her cheque is sent to her once a month by Purolator. It is memoed as for writing and for editing.

Q. Do you have direct knowledge of what that

$3,000, in fact, covers?

A. Actually, one time when I was receiving faxes for Ernst, Ingrid had sent up for the purposes of filing for tax returns a financial statement which said, "You pay me $3,000 U.S. The Web site charges are $400 and $500 a month. My rent is $800 a month. My utilities, my phone, my fax is so much and so much. Deduct the expenses, my income is $10,000-and-some-odd a year. Will you sign this and send it back so that I can prepare my tax form, which he did.

Q. You saw that document?

A. Yes, I did.

Q. You saw that it was signed by Mr. Zundel and returned?

A. Actually, he delayed in signing it, so there were two more faxes. Ingrid complained that she hadn't received it back yet, so he finally signed it and sent it back.

Q. When you say there was an entry on this document relating to Web site charges of $400 to $500 a month, what did that refer to?

A. I believe that is what Ingrid has to pay Webcom, the server, for placing that large amount of information on the Internet. That is server charges for Web space.

Q. Service charged for Web space?

A. Yes. If I have an Internet site with one page for advertising purposes, a server might charge me $5,00 because it doesn't take up very much space on the server to handle it. We have a fairly large site. When more material is added, some is taken off to make room. I think the server charged Ingrid $400 to $500 a month for the amount of material they would have to put on the Internet for people to access.

Q. In fact, who was paying those charges during the time that you lived with Mr. Zundel?

A. The paycheque was given to Ingrid. She would deduct those expenses from the $3,000, so I would have to say that Ernst did it, although the Webcom account is in Ingrid's name.

Q. There is a reference in this material to Samisdat Publishing.

A. Right.

Q. What can you tell the Tribunal about that company?

A. Samisdat Publishing is Ernst's company. As far as I know, he has no stockholders or officers. He is the sole proprietor. He is the only one who signs the paycheques. The American dollar account and the Canadian dollar account from which he pays his employees are on Samisdat Publishing cheques.

THE CHAIRPERSON: Will you spell the name for me?

THE WITNESS: S-a-m-i-s-d-a-t, Samisdat. I believe it is a Russian word meaning "underground."

THE CHAIRPERSON: Samisdat Publishing.

THE WITNESS: Right.

MR. BINNIE:

Q. Do you know whether Ms Rimland has any Web sites other than the Zundelsite for which Mr. Zundel pays the expenses?

A. She has a personal Web site where she advertises her services as a speech giver and details her experience as a writer and author.

Q. Do you know whether that personal Web site of Ms Rimland is also paid for by Mr. Zundel?

A. It has a different Web address. I don't know if he pays for it.

Q. In connection with these Zgrams -- and you have described the editorial process that they go through -- were there instances at the time that you were living with Mr. Zundel where contributions to the Zgrams originated with Mr. Zundel?

A. Ingrid always says she is a novelist and a writer; she is not a researcher. She hates to research, and she doesn't do a lot of research. On the anniversary of the bombing of Dresden, for example, I accessed information on the Internet that Ernst faxed down to Ingrid to use for a Zgram. On the Nuremberg trials, for example, she did a lot of Zgrams on that topic. Ernst provided her the information and faxed it down to her for research for material that he wanted her to use.

Q. Were there instances of various drafts of these Zgrams coming back and forth over the fax?

A. It was a daily occurrence. If we would ever travel -- we took 10 days to go on our honeymoon seven months after we were married. Ernst made Ingrid send, I believe, 14 Zgrams up. He corrected 10 and sent them back to her so that she could post them. I actually assisted in the editing of those Zgrams because there was such a large amount of them.

If ever Ernst was out of touch with Ingrid, then the Zgrams were pre-arranged, sent up in a batch, edited and approved for what she could post while we were travelling.

Q. Approved by whom?

A. By Ernst.

Q. You say there was a group of 14?

A. Yes.

Q. Of which 10 were approved?

A. Because we would be gone 10 days.

Q. What happened to the other four?

A. He didn't like the content of them, so he didn't fax them back for her to use. He said those were unacceptable.

Q. Did you have any conversations from time to time with Ms Rimland?

A. No. Basically, if there were objections about the Zgrams, I voiced them to Ernst, and then Ernst would tell Ingrid to post or not post or edit or correct the Zgram.

THE CHAIRPERSON: So you didn't speak to her?

THE WITNESS: No.

THE CHAIRPERSON: Ever?

THE WITNESS: Just to answer the phone and call Ernst to the telephone. If I tried to make a suggestion or fax her something, she was very resentful and would start an argument, so I had very little contact with her.

MR. BINNIE:

Q. Were there any examples in the writings that came over the fax machine from Ms Rimland about this approval process and her views about it?

A. Yes. There was one time where there was pretty much a fax war going on between Ernst and Ingrid. She was very upset. She wanted to make a personal comment that Ernst took issue with. He said, "You absolutely cannot write that about me." She said, "Aren't people entitled to their own memories? You tell me what I can and I can't write. I just want to make you more human," to which Ernst faxed back to her, "Long before you ever came along I was in charge of my own image and public persona and personality. I don't need you to tell me how to present myself. I didn't say what you said I did." Then she faxed back, "It's like a fist in my face. I am not allowed to write what I want to write," blah-blah-blah.

After two days of this going back and forth and all this upset, the Zgram went out without the offending remark that he didn't like. That was a security breach that she even wanted to print it.

Q. In the period that you and Mr. Zundel lived together, did he ever express to you who he thought was in charge of the content of the Zundelsite, apart from what you observed?

A. It really wasn't discussed because it was apparent.

Q. What was apparent?

A. That he controlled material on the Zundelsite. He had editorial control over every Zgram, and he told Marc what to post in his radio shows and he told Marc what to put up on his video.

Q. You mentioned that some $3,000 a month was paid to Ingrid Rimland.

A. Right.

Q. And you have mentioned work being done by Marc Lemire. To your knowledge, was he paid for his work in connection with the Zundelsite?

A. Marc did some work in conjunction with the Zundelsite, like backing up a file. Other work Marc did wasn't related entirely to the Zundelsite. For example, Ernst has a huge archive of photographs from demonstrations, trips he has made around the world. Marc would scan those on to the disk to save them. Some of those pictures appear on the Zundelsite. Marc probably scanned hundreds of pictures and made a CD-ROM out of them.

The computer work is not entirely Zundelsite-related. He does get paid for that as well.

Q. Does he have the password to the Zundelsite?

A. In my opinion, he has to to send out Ingrid's e-mails and to post the Zgrams and to put up the audio and video clips. I wouldn't know how he would do it without knowing the password.

Q. From your knowledge of how the system works -- and you indicated earlier that you did not have the ability to post although you did have the ability to access.

A. It is my understanding that to post something you have to have the password to the Web site.

Q. Were there any other people who did work in connection with the Zundelsite whom Mr. Zundel paid?

A. Not one that he paid. There was a gentleman by the name of Greg Raven at the Institute for Historical Review who helped Ingrid on the Web site. I don't believe he took payment for his services; I think he assisted her as a personal favour.

Q. Perhaps we can clarify a bit the issue on the Zgrams and the need to have 10 of them pre-approved during the 10 days that you were on holiday, as you described to the Tribunal.

How often are these Zgrams posted to the Web site?

A. They are supposed to be posted daily, although sometimes, when Ingrid travelled and Marc was responsible for posting them and sending them out by e-mail, there were three or four occasions when Marc would fall behind. People would call up the office to complain that they hadn't gotten a Zgram or their Web site was three or four days behind.

Q. Sorry, who would call the office?

A. People used to getting their e-mail or people who would surf the site and not see them. They would call and say, "You haven't posted a Zgram for four or five days. What's up?"

Q. What office would they call?

A. At 206 Carlton Street.

When Ernst would be travelling, he would call in for his messages, and he would be aware there was a problem. After a while, I began to travel with a laptop, and then I would check on those things and access the site while we were travelling.

Q. What would you be checking on your laptop?

A. On a couple of occasions Ingrid posted things that Ernst didn't approve of, so I would check to see that the Zgrams were posted, if Marc had posted them for Ingrid, if the site was up to date, or if Ingrid had posted the things that were approved.

Q. On the occasions when you were checking for something that was posted that contained something that had not been approved, what happened?

A. That is one reason why I got a laptop. I had checked the site after we came back from travelling and found a couple of things I didn't think were right. I got a laptop to be able to check on those things. After I started checking on it, there weren't too many irregularities that I recall. They seemed to be posted the way he wanted.

Q. By "he," who are you referring to?

A. Ernst.

Q. You have told the Tribunal about the Zgrams and the posting of the Power Letters. You identified a book of some Power Letters. What was the procedure to have the Power Letters posted during the period that you lived at 206 Carlton?

A. After Ingrid would put them in a usable form and they were printed out and mailed, I think they would allow time for people to receive their Power Letter in the mail, and maybe a week or so after it was received, it would be posted to the Web site. There is a Power Letter in English and German for every month on the Web site.

Q. Is there a variety of different authors who do Power Letters?

A. No, it is all the work of Ernst, except a small contribution I made, research for Anti-Racist Action, which he added comments to, or he might include a section of an affidavit or he might quote from somebody else, and he always specified whose work he was quoting in his Power Letter. All the other commentary is Ernst's, and he makes sure that each Power Letter says "personal opinion of the author,"

Q. And who is the author?

A. Ernst.

Q. The Tribunal has heard evidence that, in addition to the Power Letters and the Zgrams, there is other material posted.

A. Right.

Q. Are you familiar with the process by which that other material got posted, at least during the time you lived at 206 Carlton?

A. The Web site was up and operational when I was married to Ernst, so other people's material, like Dr. Faurisson or Mark Weber or Ian McDonald or whatever, "Did Six Million Really Die?" -- a lot of that was posted originally before I came up. But there were contributions by people like Ian McDonald, that he would send to Ingrid and Ingrid would fax to Ernst to look over, and then it would get posted to the Web site. So some material was already there, and I don't know what arrangements he made with the authors of that other material.

Q. In connection with the example you gave, Ian McDonald's contribution, can you tell the Tribunal a little more about the nature of the material?

A. There is a section called "Ian's Corner."

Q. A section on the Web site?

A. Right, called "Ian's Corner." Basically, they are reproductions of editorial letters that Ian McDonald writes to various newspapers, generally The Globe and Mail, on whatever political topic. Then they are reproduced on the Web site in the original form that they were sent to the newspaper. Not all of them are published in the newspaper, but he mails all of them to the paper. Some were published, I think.

Q. Did Mr. Zundel, during the period that you lived at 206 Carlton, have a role in the editing of material by Ian McDonald?

A. He saw what Ian wrote, but he never edited it because there was never a problem with what Mr. McDonald wrote. It was a just a letter to an editor that was being reproduced on the Web site, and Ernst didn't object to the content of it.

Q. For what purpose, then, was Ian McDonald's contribution faxed to Ernst?

A. I think Ingrid just showed him everything that was going up.

Q. Going up where?

A. Up on the web site. She would fax it up to him to look at.

Q. During the time that you lived at 206 Carlton, are you aware of any material that was posted to the Web site without the prior approval of Mr. Zundel?

A. There was a couple of Zgrams, and I can't tell you exactly what date or what Zgrams, that he didn't like, but they were posted. On one occasion he told me that he had told her to strike a remark from the Zgram and that she had left it in and posted it anyway.

Q. What was the result of that?

A. Then I started travelling with the laptop and checking on what was posted while we were travelling.

Q. There are references in the documents in front of you, in the Zgrams and in Power Letters, to Mirror sites. Are you familiar with those?

A. Yes. I believe at last count there were 22 of them.

Q. What are Mirror sites?

A. A Mirror site is a total or a partial reproduction of the Web site that someone else puts on their server on their account.

Q. How is this done physically?

A. Before I mentioned Greg Raven. When they were wanting to put Mirror sites together, some people did not want to mirror the entire site. Greg Raven had worked with Ingrid to redo the mechanics of the site where only certain portions could be accessed and downloaded. You could download "Did Six Million Really Die?" in the Zgrams, but not "Jewish Soap" or the letters or whatever. You could download certain sections or download the whole thing.

That was Greg's job, to help make the site more manageable so that people could mirror it. Out of the 22 Mirror sites, I don't know how many are partial mirrors and how many are full mirrors, maybe half and half; I don't know.

Q. You mentioned earlier that there is a cost associated with contents taking up space on a site or in a server. Do you know how the cost of the Mirror sites was paid?

A. From what Ernst explained to me -- I had found several receipts for mailboxes in Mississauga and Hamilton and various places. I had confronted Ernst and asked who he was getting mail from. Was he getting mail from other women? Was he cheating on me? Why did he need all these mailboxes?

At first, he wouldn't answer me, but we were in the States about to cross the border back into Canada, and he didn't want to be arguing at a border stop. He explained to me that Marc Lemire had taken out those mailboxes so people could send bills for the Mirror sites to the mailboxes, and Ernst could send back payment for the amount of space they took up on the server.

Q. You say people would send bills to the mailboxes?

A. There are 22 Mirror sites, and I don't know how many are doing it out of the greatness of their heart and not charging him and how many are. The ones who do want to be reimbursed send an invoice or a statement or whatever to Marc Lemire at the mailboxes at whatever location, and then those are paid.

Q. So these people are the people responsible for the frame cost of the Mirror site.

A. That's right.

Q. How was the money to defray the $3,000 a month to Ms Rimland and the other expenses you have referred to in connection with the Zundelsite -- where did that money come from?

A. Ernst raises his money by donations that come from 42 countries of the world. From what he explained to me, about a third comes from the States, a third comes from Germany, and the other third from various other places. Some are contributions in cash, some are contributions by cheque, and a few people make direct deposits into the bank account. In certain Power Letters he indicated where his bank is and what the account number is so that people can make a direct deposit.

Q. Can you tell the Tribunal whether any of this money raised by Mr. Zundel is earmarked for the Zundelsite?

A. $3,000 U.S. a month.

Q. There are references in the Zundelsite material to copyrights. Can you tell the Panel, to your knowledge, how the copyright on the Zundelsite works?

A. The Zundelsite didn't always have copyrighted material. It became copyrighted around February of 1997, over my strenuous objections and about four or five marital arguments with Ernst about it.

The situation was that he wanted Ingrid to own the copyright and be the owner of the Zundelsite. I questioned him. I said, "Ernst, you have TV shows, you have radio shows, you have Power Letters, you have the Leuchter Report which you own. What happens financially to the proceeds of that if Ingrid becomes the owner? Now you have a wife and you have two grown sons from a previous marriage. When you die, you will have an archive of 38 years of your political work and activity -- books that you have written, Power Letters that you have written. What happens to that? Because it is parked on a Web site for X amount of time and she owns the copyright and owns the site, does that mean she owns your Leuchter Report? Does that mean she collects royalties from that?"

I thought that was inappropriate, for a paid employee to have that much influence and control over his life's work, and I objected to it being copyrighted.

Q. Did he give any explanation as to why this copyright was being assigned?

A. He felt that, if Ingrid owned the copyright, she would be the owner of the Zundelsite. Because she is an American citizen living in the United States and the Zundelsite is physically operated in the United States, then Ernst would not be held civilly or criminally liable in Canada for the content of it. That was my understanding.

THE CHAIRPERSON: When did this occur?

THE WITNESS: It was finally copyrighted, I believe, on February 12, 1997. I had seen a fax by Ingrid Rimland probably on the 9th or 10th of February, saying that she had obtained the copyright.

MR. BINNIE:

Q. You made a specific reference to the Leuchter Report.

A. Right.

Q. What is that document?

A. During Ernst's trial, I believe his first trial, he commissioned Fred Leuchter to go to various concentration camp sites and take samples and test for the presence of Zyklon B to see if there were exterminations there by gas. The Leuchter Report is Fred Leuchter's findings on his fact-finding mission and what the laboratory reports revealed about the presence of Zyklon B in the camps.

Q. You mentioned earlier specific deletions requested from time to time by Mr. Zundel from the Zgrams. Can you give the Tribunal any examples that you remember?

A. I can give you a couple.

One Zgram was disallowed in its entirety. Ingrid had sent up a piece she had written about Middle Eastern drug smugglers that were caught; it was a whole family. In the Middle East, if you are caught smuggling drugs, then you get the death penalty. One of the people who was caught was a pregnant woman, and she was scheduled for execution. There was another woman who had small children, and husbands and aunts and uncles and things. Ingrid was making a impassioned plea that people should protest pregnant women being executed, and blah-blah-blah.

I objected to it being on the site because I thought Ernst's site was for historical revisionism and questioning World War II; it was not an appropriate topic. Ernst is for the death penalty. Ernst is not for drugs or drug smuggling. He told Ingrid that it would be inappropriate to post that article, that he wasn't a bleeding-heart liberal; that those people knew the laws of the land that they operated in. If a pregnant woman smuggled drugs and got caught, it was her fate. She knew what she was doing.

So that one was not allowed to go. She had to write another one to replace it.

Q. Can you give the Tribunal some idea -- and, of necessity, a general idea -- of the extent to which the Zgrams were rewritten by Mr. Zundel during the period that you lived at 206 Carlton?

A. I would say, on average, after the Zgram was corrected by him, stuff inserted or crossed off, or whatever -- that was another thing that used to irritate me. Ingrid plans to make a book in her name and sell as a book a copy of the Zgrams. It always infuriated me. I said, "Ernst, you wrote at least half of those darn things, and she is going to put it in a book and sell it and make 100 per cent profit on what you wrote." We had a spat about that, too.

Q. Do you have any personal knowledge of any money going to support the Zundelsite, other than the $3,000 a month you mentioned to Ingrid Rimland and whatever money was paid to Marc Lemire and others for posting to the Zundelsite?

A. No, that is all I have personal knowledge of.

MR. BINNIE: Those are my questions, Mr. Chairman. Thank you very much, Mrs. Zundel.

THE CHAIRPERSON: Mr. Christie, do you want to recess now?

MR. CHRISTIE: As I said earlier, I have a commitment at 1:30. Obviously, if I am going to make it, I can't start now.

THE CHAIRPERSON: We will adjourn until 2:30.

MR. CHRISTIE: And that is subject to the Federal Court.

THE CHAIRPERSON: Subject to whatever happens.

MR. CHRISTIE: What about lunch?

THE CHAIRPERSON: We will be here. If you need more time, obviously, we will give it to you.

MR. CHRISTIE: Thank you.

--- Luncheon Recess at 1:00 p.m.

--- Upon resuming at 2:58 p.m.

THE CHAIRPERSON: Mr. Christie, please.

MR. CHRISTIE: In light of the pressure of other affairs on this day, I have decided that it would be best to defer my cross-examination until December.

THE CHAIRPERSON: That is consistent with what we ruled on this morning. I guess we have run out of work for the day.

We did have an outstanding issue with respect to what might be referred to as after-acquired evidence, evidence after the complaint. I don't know whether counsel wish to address that or to defer that until another day.

MR. CHRISTIE: I am prepared to make a submission, but I don't know if it was after-acquired evidence or after-acquired complaint material.

THE CHAIRPERSON: I thought your objection was on the basis that it was evidence that came into existence following the date of the complaint.

MR. CHRISTIE: Yes.

THE CHAIRPERSON: Do you want to address that issue?

MR. CHRISTIE: My submission, very briefly, is that it is improper to make a complaint that does not specify its content and does not allow knowledge of the case to be met. It would be contrary to fundamental justice to allow any form of complaint or indictment to allege that an offence was continuing in a form that had not been specified at the time the indictment or complaint was laid. That is the basic principle I would like to submit.

It is interpreted by my learned friends that the complaint is open-ended, and any material that arises up to the present, I suppose, can be included. We have not an inquiry into a complaint, but an ongoing investigation that the Commission or the Tribunal can take at any time.

That is my submission. It is contrary to the principles of fundamental justice and section 7 of the Charter of Rights and Freedoms as it applies to these proceedings, and it would be improper to have a complaint in that form.

THE CHAIRPERSON: Mr. Binnie, please.

MR. BINNIE: Mr. Chairman, I am going to refer to a few cases, and I will provide Members of the Tribunal with the cases at a later point. I had assumed that we would not be reaching this --

THE CHAIRPERSON: I have sort of sprung this on you both.

MR. BINNIE: I start from where we left off last time, that the complaints are said to be continuing and that the relief which we ultimately seek, in effect, is that the conduct cease and desist. That presupposes that the Tribunal has on the record that the activity is continuing and, therefore, must cease. Otherwise, the committee would not know whether it had been rendered moot or not.

THE CHAIRPERSON: Is there any other remedy? There isn't any other remedy, is there?

MR. BINNIE: Fundamentally, it is a cease and desist to the discriminatory practice or the rights violation, I think under section 53 of the Act.

It is in the nature of a civil injunction. It is clearly not a criminal process. I think, for that proposition, I rely on a couple of cases, one involving the Human Rights Commission in the Taylor case. In the decision in the Supreme Court of Canada, [1990] 75 D.L.R. 4th, 577, Chief Justice Dickson made the following comment:

THE CHAIRPERSON: At what page?

MR. BINNIE: At page 592.

He says:

"It is essential, however, to recognize that, as an instrument specially designed to prevent the spread of prejudice and to foster tolerance and equality in the community, the Canadian Human Rights Act is very different from the Criminal Code. The aim of human rights legislation and of section 13(1) --"

Which, of course, is the one the Tribunal is dealing with.

"-- is not to bring the full force of the state's power against a blameworthy individual for the purpose of imposing punishment. Instead, provisions found in human rights statutes generally operate in a less confrontational manner, allowing for a conciliatory settlement if possible, and, where discrimination exists, gearing remedial responses more towards compensating the victim."

The remedial response here, fundamentally, is to cease and desist.

There are two other cases to the same effect. Cwinn, the Ottawa solicitor case, and The Law Society of Upper Canada, in 1980, 28 O.R. 2nd, starting at page 61, also dealt with the complaint and the need for particulars. It was held that the proceeding was not a criminal proceeding, that what was important was that in the course of the hearing there was sufficient disclosure of the case to be met and an appropriate opportunity to respond. We do have copies of the Cwinn case here.

The other decision is Stephens and The Law Society which is a 1979 case, 55 O.R. 2nd Series, at page 405.

The basic issue that the Tribunal has is a civil offence leading to remedial action. I rely on the nature of the Tribunal as disclosed in the Taylor case, as discussed in the Supreme Court of Canada, and specifically on sections 49 and 50 of the Act, section 50 in particular making it clear that evidence can be received that is inadmissible in a court of law. So it is clearly an administrative tribunal.

I rely on section 53(2) which says specifically that the remedy of a cease and desist order may be granted if the person complained against is found to be engaging, i.e. present, at the time of the hearing or to have engaged. It is, again, consistent with this being a remedial act and granting a remedy equivalent to an injunction that the critical date is as of the hearing itself.

With respect to the section 13(1) jurisprudence, it is clear that evidence has been led, including the Taylor case, up to the date of the hearing. If that is the case, it would follow that the person complained against has a right to particulars of what is complained of. That is why the complaints, which are taken to be continuing and which are brought forward to the extent shown in CH-2, cover a period which the Commission says is representative of the conduct which we are seeking to have stopped.

The only other matter I would draw the Tribunal's attention to is the nature of a continuing offence, continuing contravention, even in the context of a Human Rights Commission matter. A decision of the Manitoba Human Rights Commission v. Galbraith reported in 1982, Volume 5 of the Canadian Human Rights Reporter -- and I have a copy for my friend and for the Tribunal.

If the Tribunal would turn to page 1887, you will see in paragraph 16190, after reviewing the decisions and the nature of a continuing cause of action or continuing contravention, the statement is made:

"What emerges from all of the decisions is that a continuing violation (or a continuing grievance, discrimination, offence or cause of action) is one that arises from a succession (or repetition) or separate violations (or separate acts, omissions, discriminations, offences or actions) of the same character (or of the same kind). That reasoning, in my view, should apply to the notion of the 'continuing contravention' under the Act. To be a 'continuing contravention', there must be a succession or repetition of separate acts of discrimination of the same character. There must be present acts of discrimination which could be considered as separate contraventions of the Act, and not merely one act of discrimination which may have continuing effects or consequences."

The evidence which you have heard, of the repetitive, continuing nature of the material posted to the Zundelsite, leads to our request to the Tribunal to impose a cease and desist order.

In my submission, not only is the position taken by the Commission consistent with the complaint; it is consistent with the nature of the Tribunal, the nature of the relief requested, and falls within the description of the process given by the Supreme Court of Canada in the Taylor case.

THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. Do you have anything further, Mr. Christie?

MR. CHRISTIE: No, thank you.

THE CHAIRPERSON: We will adjourn, then, to the next scheduled session of this Tribunal.

Thank you.

--- Whereupon the Hearing adjourned at 3:12 p.m. to resume

on Monday, December 8, 1997